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06-12-2024, 05:19 AM
VicariousXIV
Some DRK changes seem annoyingly simple yet are ignored....
So yes I know so many people have issues with the current state of DRK that the megathread for it is seemingly the most active place on the entire forums, so some of this may have been brought up and I just didn't find it or it's become "old news," but I'm just so befuddled by the apparent ignorance on this.
There's a few things that to me seem like rather common complaints/requests that the community has brought up for years, and when the other tanks have issues they're almost always addressed in less time then a full expansion, but not with DRK.
Firstly why the f*ck do we still have SE and SnD in their current, nearly worthless states in PvE when they've already created interesting and useful version of both abilities in PvP!? I mean I get why people complain about how strong they are in PvP, but in PvE they'd work fantastically in dungeons without making the DRK better then the others, and would provide SOME functionality in endgame content whereas right now they're both just negligible amounts of potency. This feels like the easiest and most straight forward fix that might actually put DRK on par with the other tanks in dungeon efficiency, finally.
Also, why the f*ck does everyone think we all actually like TBN in it's current state? Costing us our damage and only refunding it when used properly, and why do they all think we "celebrate" having the "lowest CD defensive ability" when it's so f*cking rare to actually ever get to actually make use of it more then the other tanks get to use their much better and FREE defensives with their slightly longer CDs? I seriously can't tell if it's like some lingering ignorance by people from so many years ago, or if they're all just making excuses to "defend the DRK" cause they grew attached to it and it's awesome storyline but never played it in endgame to know any better, or if other DRK players actually like this subpar ability?
On that note why the f*ck does Oblation even exist?
Make TBN free of MP, give it Oblations DR, increase the CD and increase the duration, but keep the breaking mechanic to actually provide a reward for using it properly instead of a means to avoid a punishment.
Add in a new MP costing ability instead, like another oGCD attack that applies the old Bloodprice ability, where the target's attacks restore MP to the DRK (so it still works if you're offtank), so you have to weave it in to maintain proper MP generation, and it might honestly be necessary for something with more MP generation now that Delirium/BW gives so much less MP.
Idk, changes like these seem so f*cking obvious, like the BW and LD changes we had to practically beg for last expansion, basic sh*t seemingly every DRK wants yet we're constantly ignored.
06-12-2024, 06:28 AM
WeakestZenosEnjoyer
Salted Earth pulling enemies to you in PvE could actually be useful, though it would have a billion exceptions when a boss is supposed to be in a particular spot.
TBN is good actually and is DRK's strongest tool, as short cooldown mit it's only surpassed in dungeons by Raw "Hallowed Ground on a 25 sec CD" Intuition and it's older brother Bloodwhetting, while also being very potent at mitigating tankbusters. It is effectively already free unless you move MP out of burst with it actually being a damage gain when used properly and removing that element of DRK is quite literally the only uniqueness left.
Oblation is just the extra mit all short CDs got in Endwalker except better because it's a flexible mit with charges, don't be disappointed just because the tooltip isn't 7 paragraphs, being separate also helps ensure TBN pops.
Bloodprice but you don't have to be hit just isn't Bloodprice, DRK does need more MP management back though it's just Edge gauge now.
06-12-2024, 07:11 AM
VicariousXIV
Yeah, bosses would have to be immune to forced movement and probably the blind on SnD as well, but the DR and HoT while inside of it would be the good part in such cases.
And I'm not saying TBN is "bad," it's just worse then basically every other short CD mits the other tanks have, it's FAR worse in dungeons and only functions on par in endgame content, and only when used properly is it "free" cause otherwise it's an actual loss/punishment. The "uniqueness" is also already gone, cause I mean either you punish yourself for using it (the unique part) or you use it properly and it's just a shield "for free" and it functions exactly the same cause you don't have use for it more often then the other tanks cause bosses are designed around the CD for the other tanks. I'm also not saying "just remove it from the MP pool and nothing else," I am saying it should be replaced so the DRK has actual offensive choices to use their MP on, cause right now it's just "use it all on your one offensive ability then pop a shield when the indicator pops up." Mechanically it's all just subpar.
But yeah Oblation is flexible, I'll grant that, I also just don't think that's enough to make it worthwhile as a separate ability. If TBN is so important to the kit they should have given TBN that flexibility and not added more unnecessary bloat.
And yeah, it does not "need" more MP regen, but why not? We're talking about "uniqueness" of the job but at the same time you'd prefer to just keep it as an "Edge gauge?" Providing more tools in the kit to build and dump MP would be that actual uniqueness it's lacking.
06-12-2024, 07:26 AM
Agner
I believe you misunderstand. While some people definitely love TBN, I wouldn't be surprised if most are attached to it as a relic of a bygone era. It's not clung to out of love, but out of desperation that whatever fun we had does not proceed to fade into the genericisms of the present. At least, that's where I'm at—and I do not trust the current team to improve upon it without somehow managing to knock the wind out of DRK's sails yet again.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Also, why the f*ck does everyone think we all actually like TBN in it's current state?
I actually don't mind the spot DRK is in currently with regards to defense. It doesn't seem great in comparison to the others, but I feel like they are tuned much more strangely. I just find the offensive toolkit to be, well, offensive.
Back in 2022, I posted that around 4 years ago was the last time any major decisions were made to better the feeling of the job. About 3 months later we ended up getting a great change in the revamped form of Living Dead, and a convenience in the form of BW stacks. I could be completely off base and forgetting other major changes, so do correct me if I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Idk, changes like these seem so f*cking obvious, like the BW and LD changes we had to practically beg for last expansion, basic sh*t seemingly every DRK wants yet we're constantly ignored.
With that said, you're not really wrong. DRK was always that kind of job where you needed to put more effort into play in order to come out equal to others, so maybe they just wanted to apply that to our job feedback as well. It would explain why WAR feedback seems to be implemented more often, at least. :o
06-12-2024, 08:11 AM
VicariousXIV
I think that's a fair concern, it's just that I've always played both WAR and DRK and when EW dropped the DRK gets random button bloat and basic bitch potencies, while WAR got all of the potential QoL it could have ever asked for while also getting new abilities that weren't just for damage, so I get to play WAR for a whole expansion where it's f*cking awesome! Yes, it's currently overtuned now that it also does the second most damage of the tanks, not arguing that, but I got to experience them actually doing a good job with one of my main jobs, so I'm just left wondering WHY THE f*ck the DRK has barely been touched in comparison?Quote:
Originally Posted by Agner
I believe you misunderstand...... knock the wind out of DRK's sails yet again.
Cause I don't like where it is right now in terms of defense, it's the least interactive (ironically) when it comes to endgame and it just flat out f*cking sucks in dungeons for no good reason. Yeah I know many will just say "dungeons don't matter," and they really don't cause anything can in fact clear them, but the fact DRK struggles so much in comparison is just such a clear and obvious indicator that some things are off with it and it would be so simple to address it if they ever bothered to. But yeah, WAR heals themselves with abilities, GNB gets an excog they can combo with other abilities, and PLD has always had the most defensive options since I started playing, but the DRK just uses some MP to make a shield, it breaks, and they use the damage ability they'd have used otherwise anyways? Yeah it works just as well in endgame as any other tank, there's no denying it's still entirely viable and functional, but it's basic as f*ck while also some how being convoluted in how basic it is....
Yeah those are the exact scenarios I was referring to actually, not your comments in particular or anything but those instances of getting BW charges and a mini-rework to LD. I really don't think those would have ever happened if not for people making a fuss about it, cause while we were bringing it to light most non-DRK players were also actively arguing AGAINST any of those changes! "You don't need charges on BW, it works fine and now you deal the most damage for the tanks, stop complaining!" or "if they change LD and it doesn't have such a nasty drawback to it's usage it'll be instantly OP and break the balance of the tanks!" Now we have charges, deal less damage then WAR and GNB, and LD simply functions like always should have and is still not even the best invuln, it's just finally comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agner
I posted that around 4 years ago....... It would explain why WAR feedback seems to be implemented more often, at least. :o
You might have a point though, they dumbed the job down mechanically so they have to ramp up how hard it is to get any meaningful QoL or updates lol
06-13-2024, 03:59 AM
Oizen
I think the current issue with removing that functionality of TBN is you'd ultimately be removing the last real unique job mechanic of dark knight, in favor of making it a 25s Thrill of Battle with no flare to it. It would also be stripping DRK lot of flexibility in the use of mitigation as having Oblation and TBN on low cooldowns as separate buttons does has a lot of benefit to it, some people refuse to see it but it doesn't mean its not there.
Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank, so what you run into is that experienced dark knight players are already completely used to the TBN cost and its a borderline nonfactor, while to anyone who doesnt play the job hardcore view it was a major limiting factor. In actuality TBN does indeed give you a notable upside. It allows you to prevent overcapping MP without actually spending it, this is notable because you now have the ability to effectively enter a burst window with 13,000 MP playing into DRK's strength of stockpiling attacks for burst window that lead to its meta dominance of Endwalker.
I dont know about you but I'd rather have it as it is now than a 25s Thrill of Battle with 10% mit, and nothing else notable about it.
06-13-2024, 04:21 AM
Shurrikhan
I mean, it's a more frequent, more flexible (outside of maybe Holy Shelltron), more precise, and higher-skill-ceiling tool that allows us to cheesily keep ourselves from even getting debuffed. It's also the last unique "on-demand" defensive of the bunch. Liking it doesn't require desperation nor nostalgia, only having played without and with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agner
I believe you misunderstand. While some people definitely love TBN, I wouldn't be surprised if most are attached to it as a relic of a bygone era. It's not clung to out of love, but out of desperation that whatever fun we had does not proceed to fade into the genericisms of the present. At least, that's where I'm at—and I do not trust the current team to improve upon it without somehow managing to knock the wind out of DRK's sails yet again.
It's also pretty absurd that people who didn't play in Stormblood blame it for the loss of this or that other capacity... despite its addition also giving us the largest extent of those other capacities simultaneously. DRK's vampirics reached their most unique, most synergetic, and most powerful... all with the release of TBN.
06-13-2024, 04:26 AM
VicariousXIV
But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
I think the current issue with removing that functionality of TBN is you'd ultimately be removing the last real unique job mechanic of dark knight, in favor of making it a 25s Thrill of Battle with no flare to it. It would also be stripping DRK lot of flexibility in the use of mitigation as having Oblation and TBN on low cooldowns as separate buttons does has a lot of benefit to it, some people refuse to see it but it doesn't mean its not there.
Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank, so what you run into is that experienced dark knight players are already completely used to the TBN cost and its a borderline nonfactor, while to anyone who doesnt play the job hardcore view it was a major limiting factor. In actuality TBN does indeed give you a notable upside. It allows you to prevent overcapping MP without actually spending it, this is notable because you now have the ability to effectively enter a burst window with 13,000 MP playing into DRK's strength of stockpiling attacks for burst window that lead to its meta dominance of Endwalker.
I dont know about you but I'd rather have it as it is now than a 25s Thrill of Battle with 10% mit, and nothing else notable about it.
For one I don't think it would just become another Thrill as the shield breaking mechanic should stay and it then has almost all of it's current mechanics intact, cause as you mentioned when someone gets used to playing DRK it becomes kind of a non-factor to use TBN, and you get back your damage anyways, removing it's MP cost changes NONE of that, so calling it "nothing more then Thrill plus 10% mit" is kind of disingenuous.
However once it's removed from the MP pool suddenly CBU3 can actually add to the available skills that make use of MP. Right now if they add a new MP skill it would literally just get in the way cause it's so tied to your main defensive tool, but if MP was instead only used for offensive options then a lot more tools could be added to actually work at differentiating DRK. Start with the idea of reintroducing a version of Bloodprice to give the DRK more active MP regen, so now you're weaving two offensive abilities that give a buff and debuff for you to upkeep, on top of that other skills could be added in the future that can expand upon those options and choices. Meanwhile TBN still functions EXACTLY the same but without an MP cost.
And again, I don't think Oblation's flexibility is enough of a reason for it to exist, cause that flexibility can simply be given to TBN to give it "more flare," since it still actually lacks that, costing MP isn't "flare," imho.
06-13-2024, 04:33 AM
VicariousXIV
It's only "more precise" cause of a shorter duration, artificial "preciseness" if anything cause all defensives still have to be used roughly at the same times, and it's "skill ceiling" is actually incredibly low. If anything it's got a higher "skill floor" as it takes slightly longer for new players to grasp it's proper use but once you get the basics you're practically at the low as f*ck ceiling already lol Not that the other tank's low CD defensives are "skill intensive," but they all have auxiliary effects that aren't just "use damage ability you'd have used anyways" and actually provide for and emphasize a playstyle that again isn't just "costs MP."Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I mean, it's a more frequent, more flexible (outside of maybe Holy Shelltron), more precise, and higher-skill-ceiling tool that allows us to cheesily keep ourselves from even getting debuffed. It's also the last unique "on-demand" defensive of the bunch. Liking it doesn't require desperation nor nostalgia, only having played without and with it.
It's also pretty absurd that people who didn't play in Stormblood blame it for the loss of this or that other capacity... despite its addition also giving us the largest extent of those other capacities simultaneously. DRK's vampirics reached their most unique, most synergetic, and most powerful... all with the release of TBN.
And sure, maybe the DRK felt the best right when TBN was released, that's subjective so I won't deny anyone that sentiment and there's plenty of reason to feel that way, but that was YEARS ago, we've moved past that period of time and the DRK is being left behind because of this apparent need to maintain this now subpar defensive ability.
06-13-2024, 04:45 AM
Shurrikhan
TBN has nothing to do with the degradation of MP management.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.
What you're doing is like blaming Shinten/Kyuten for the loss of unique costs on Guren/Senei and the pruning of Kaiten and Seigan and if Yaten/Gyoten lost their Kenki costs and damage. They're not the cause; they're the sole survivors.
Likewise, Dark Arts, MP costs on other skills, etc., all existed simultaneously with TBN. The same period in which we got TBN also gave us the most involve MP manipulations and thematic means of sustain that we've ever had, and to which TBN was synergetic, not mutually exclusive.
TBN didn't remove Darkside, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, or spammable Abyssal Drain. It's simply the sole survivor of intentional simplifications.
Costing MP is, however, the reason TBN can be as flexible as it is, allowing 50% barrier HP (2 casts at 25% each) compressed into as little as 9 seconds. Meanwhile, embedding Oblation into it would both waste its scaling value on non-tanks targets and make TBN itself less flexible.Quote:
costing MP isn't "flare,"
The upgrades literally reduce skill ceiling compared to the original version of those skills. The HoTs make a large portion of their on skill's sustain less responsive, less important to time correctly / more worth simply hitting on CD, and Excog is literally autonomous. The inflated upper first half with extended window, meanwhile, reduces the reward of preemptive activations.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Not that the other tank's low CD defensives are "skill intensive," but they all have auxiliary effects that aren't just "use damage ability you'd have used anyways" and actually provide for and emphasize a playstyle that again isn't just "costs MP."
And TBN's reward isn't "use damage ability you'd have used anyways". That's neutral. Its auxiliary reward is MP-banking, since you can spend 3k MP before raid buffs to then have an extra 3k MP's to spend during raid buffs. Which is itself trumped by the flexibility of the actual defensive.
Not remotely my point. You are claiming that TBN is incompatible with more involved MP management, but anyone who played before Shadowbringers knows it wasn't. Anyone who played earlier has literally played with far more involved MP management even outside of TBN and would remember that TBN was synergetic with those other, and far more numerous, sources of depth, not mutually exclusive with them.Quote:
And sure, maybe the DRK felt the best right when TBN was released, that's subjective so I won't deny anyone that sentiment and there's plenty of reason to feel that way, but that was YEARS ago, we've moved past that period of time and the DRK is being left behind because of this apparent need to maintain this now subpar defensive ability.
06-13-2024, 04:57 AM
VicariousXIV
I never said it "killed" MP management, I said it's CURRENTLY the reason why they can't expand on it, not without other overhauls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
TBN has nothing to do with the degradation of MP management.
What you're doing is like blaming Shinten/Kyuten for the loss of unique costs on Guren/Senei and the pruning of Kaiten and Seigan and if Yaten/Gyoten lost their Kenki costs and damage. They're not the cause; they're the sole survivors.
Likewise, Dark Arts, MP costs on other skills, etc., all existed simultaneously with TBN. The same period in which we got TBN also gave us the most involve MP manipulations and thematic means of sustain that we've ever had, and to which TBN was synergetic, not mutually exclusive.
TBN didn't remove Darkside, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, or spammable Abyssal Drain. It's simply the sole survivor of intentional simplifications.
Costing MP is, however, the reason TBN can be as flexible as it is, allowing 50% barrier HP (2 casts at 25% each) compressed into as little as 9 seconds. Meanwhile, embedding Oblation into it would both waste its scaling value on non-tanks targets and make TBN itself less flexible.
If you seriously think everything would be fine if more MP skills were added, then provide me an example? What could CBU3 add into the DRK's kit that would add more uniqueness to it that cost MP while not getting in the way of the current playstyle of burning it on Edge and making sure to have enough for TBN? Cause if you tried mixing in something like my suggestion for without TBN costing MP then you simply make having enough for TBN so easy that the cost again becomes pointless.
TBN can also be just as flexible even if it didn't cost MP. People said nearly the same thing when I was advocating for LD to get updated, to just mostly remove the drawbacks of so easily dying when you used it, and I was always met with a wall of "but then it becomes too strong and they have to make it weaker to balance it which will result in it losing all of it's identity," but hey look at that they mostly removed the drawbacks and it's f*cking awesome without being OP and is even more unique! I soundly believe it would be the same for TBN, it's just a shield, allow it to be flexible and also remove it's MP cost so that the MP usage can be expanded on again.
EDIT: You added a lot after I started my reply lol
06-13-2024, 05:08 AM
VicariousXIV
Skills being stronger doesn't automatically mean "easier," but again as I already said I don't think the other tank's defensive CDs are "skill intensive," I do think they're all easy to use and yet TBN is even easier still. But yeah, it's main reward is infact "use damage ability you lost otherwise," the auxiliary bonus of such a small "bank" of MP at buff windows isn't "hard" to pull off as it just requires a single button press and still results in the same scenario as every other instance of it's use. You hit it, forget it, button lights up later, hit it. You don't have to time anything or combo anything with it, you just press it, it's the easiest to use tank defensive there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The upgrades literally reduce skill ceiling compared to the original version of those skills. The HoTs make a large portion of their on skill's sustain less responsive, less important to time correctly / more worth simply hitting on CD, and Excog is literally autonomous. The inflated upper first half with extended window, meanwhile, reduces the reward of preemptive activations.
And TBN's reward isn't "use damage ability you'd have used anyways". That's neutral. Its auxiliary reward is MP-banking, since you can spend 3k MP before raid buffs to then have an extra 3k MP's to spend during raid buffs. Which is itself trumped by the flexibility of the actual defensive.
Not remotely my point. You are claiming that TBN is incompatible with more involved MP management, but anyone who played before Shadowbringers knows it wasn't. Anyone who played earlier has literally played with far more involved MP management even outside of TBN and would remember that TBN was synergetic with those other, and far more numerous, sources of depth, not mutually exclusive with them.
And yeah, there used to be A LOT more MP management, that is MY point too. NOW it's become a limiter cause of all of the changes up to this point in time.
06-13-2024, 05:13 AM
Shurrikhan
But it's not. TBN does not need to give (modern) "Dark Arts" nor the name "Dark Arts" be limited to giving free Edge/Flood casts. Edge/Flood is not TBN. TBN does not need to give free Edges/Floods. Nor did it originally give free Edges/Floods.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
I never said it "killed" MP management, I said it's CURRENTLY the reason why they can't expand on it, not without other overhauls.
They simply had TBN go from giving empowered GCDs (via 50 Blood, which you'd spend on Bloodspiller or Quietus for a boost over combo average ppgcd worth X potency-per-MP spent) to giving oGCD attacks because their Shadowbringers simplifications included removing Dark Arts, which would otherwise have left DRK with a massive apm gulch to fill that would have otherwise upset even more DRK players.
See AlsoIntroduction to TankingSome Tips for Dungeon Runs in Final Fantasy XIV, Part 1 – For TanksGanyu Guide and Best BuildsKaedehara Kazuha Guide and Best BuildsThen don't make it not cost MP?Quote:
Cause if you tried mixing in something like my suggestion for without TBN costing MP then you simply make having enough for TBN so easy that the cost again becomes pointless.
Literally Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, withQuote:
If you seriously think everything would be fine if more MP skills were added, then provide me an example? What could CBU3 add into the DRK's kit that would add more uniqueness to it that cost MP while not getting in the way of the current playstyle of burning it on Edge and making sure to have enough for TBN?
- each Dark Arts offensive spender not on a CD having X effective-potency-per-MP-spent plus varied utility (be that banked MP, additional healing done, suppression, or what-have-you),
- the rotational CD-locked offensive spenders (Shadowbringers, Carve and Spit) having higher effective-potency-per-MP-spent, directly or indirectly (as per follow-up buffs) to encourage margining for them as well,
- the other (non-TBN) defensive spenders, if any, generally having enough indirect rDPS value via whatever combination of saved healer GCDs/resources and/or counteroffensive attacks/buffs to be frequently optimal over non-CD directly offensive spenders (except when their burst healing or damage is more necessary at that particular moment) until overgearing content,
- and successfully popped TBNs again giving Blood (even if allowed an overcap margin for reduced skill floor), with said Blood spenders being tuned over combo appgcd sufficiently to compete with Dark Arts for successful pops only, and
- more MP actively generated per minute (instead of merely having costs nullified via CDs) such that one can more often burst in multiple means of sustain into the same TBN CD's period and for more APM between bursts (even if we might, say, have a couple actions less per 2-minute burst)...
Again, what you're saying is the equivalent to "We can't have Kaiten because we already have Shinten." You can have competing spenders, and the MP gauge would be better utilized for it.
Not inherently, no, but it does when the strengths added specifically deemphasize skillful timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Skills being stronger doesn't automatically mean "easier,"
But it's not. It's literally not. Start learning how to bank and pre-pop it. I get that the game right now, once geared, is frequently too easy to see the difference, but that goes even more all the other on-demands.Quote:
I do think they're all easy to use and yet TBN is even easier still.
Something net-neutral literally cannot be a "reward". Again, the reward has to earn you something. In TBN's case, it's subtle but still existent: an extra Edge/Flood under raid buffs because you can use it to, in effect, bank 3k MP.Quote:
But yeah, it's main reward is infact "use damage ability you lost otherwise,"
Which, again, TBN did not remove. TBN's entry introduced the height of DRK's MP manipulations, even when discounting TBN itself. If it were the limiter, it would not have existed simultaneously with that, let alone been synergetic to it.Quote:
And yeah, there used to be A LOT more MP management, that is MY point too.
06-13-2024, 05:31 AM
wildvenonat
TBN is the most fun button DRK has with a small amount of strategy involved in using it in casual play. Being able to TBN someone who you expect to stand in orange, or to improve someone else's uptime, is truly delightful.
06-13-2024, 05:44 AM
VicariousXIV
You have a fundamental misunderstanding for what I'm saying, it seems, evident by your suggestions;Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
They simply had TBN .... would have otherwise upset even more DRK players.
You're fully in the realm of "complete overhaul/rework."Quote:
Literally Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, with [LIST]each Dark Arts offensive spender not on a CD having X effective-potency-per-MP-spent plus varied utility (be that banked MP, additional healing done, suppression, or what-have-you)
The thing is I do completely agree with that, if we could get a full rework to the job then I too think a reintroduction of Dark Arts would be a good route to take and TBN staying an MP ability would fit so much better in a kit where you're building and using MP far more frequently.
But as I've mentioned a few times now, maybe not clearly enough, we've come so far down this current iteration that those options don't work anymore, my suggestions for "easy changes" are deliberately made so the devs might actually do them.
So in THAT scenario, without overhauling the whole MP system, what new ability at the start of an expansion without any other major changes could be added into the kit that costs MP and does not interfere with the current Edge/TBN gameplay? Cause that's the reality we're in, we're not getting a major overhaul.
I honestly don't think basic timing is all that "skillful," I guess, utilizing the abilities afterwards is far more "skill" expressive, but again not that I think the other tank's defensives take much skill to use either.Quote:
Not inherently, no, but it does when the strengths added specifically deemphasize skillful timing.
Don't start to get insulting just cause I don't think pre-popping is "skillful" LOLQuote:
But it's not. It's literally not. Start learning how to bank and pre-pop it. I get that the game right now, once geared, is frequently too easy to see the difference, but that goes even more all the other on-demands.
Again, that's my point, it's actual mechanics are not a reward at all, this one small auxiliary bonus in that one specific use does not equate to the whole kit being unchangeable or "skillful," it's literally a single button press.Quote:
Something net-neutral literally cannot be a "reward". Again, the reward has to earn you something. In TBN's case, it's subtle but still existent: an extra Edge/Flood under raid buffs because you can use it to, in effect, bank 3k MP.
Which, again, is not my point, as expanded on above.Quote:
Which, again, TBN did not remove. TBN's entry introduced the height of DRK's MP manipulations, even when discounting TBN itself. If it were the limiter, it would not have existed simultaneously with that, let alone been synergetic to it.
06-13-2024, 05:46 AM
VicariousXIV
Sure, I won't deny you that, but removing it's MP cost doesn't have to and even should not change that functionality of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildvenonat
TBN is the most fun button DRK has with a small amount of strategy involved in using it in casual play. Being able to TBN someone who you expect to stand in orange, or to improve someone else's uptime, is truly delightful.
Plus the other tanks also get options to use on friends as well, that actually tend to do a lot more then just give a shield.
06-13-2024, 05:51 AM
Oizen
Not really, If you removed TBN, DRK's burst would be use edge 3 times and thats it. TBN would probably also be pressed on CD because theres no reason to not.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
But TBN being tied to and almost the entire reason for MP management is WHY the job has become so tuned down and honestly bland.
With TBN, you can minmax it to get 4 edges
There's objectively more going on here.If you made it free but left the shield break mechanic you now have to go out of your way to break it every 25s, meaning its now a damage loss to not do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
For one I don't think it would just become another Thrill as the shield breaking mechanic should stay and it then has almost all of it's current mechanics intact, cause as you mentioned when someone gets used to playing DRK it becomes kind of a non-factor to use TBN, and you get back your damage anyways, removing it's MP cost changes NONE of that, so calling it "nothing more then Thrill plus 10% mit" is kind of disingenuous.
I have never once seen the developer's remove something with the intent to add something to replace it in this game's 10+ years of existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
However once it's removed from the MP pool suddenly CBU3 can actually add to the available skills that make use of MP.
Its remove, simplify, never replace. Its why literally no one believe Yoshida when he says things about Job identity coming soon™
The end result of what your asking for is Thrill of Battle with 10% mit on a 25s cd. They're not going to bring back old skills or make a new MP system for DRK when they can just do this.06-13-2024, 06:32 AM
VicariousXIV
So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a sh*t about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Not really, If you removed TBN, DRK's burst would be use edge 3 times and thats it. TBN would probably also be pressed on CD because theres no reason to not.
With TBN, you can minmax it to get 4 edges
There's objectively more going on here.Then just make up for it with other abilities or potency balancing? Why is this an issue worth considering at all? If TBN were to be changed that much why would there not be allowed any other even smaller changes? I'm not saying "do this one thing in a vaccuum," I did even brought up multiple changes lolQuote:
If you made it free but left the shield break mechanic you now have to go out of your way to break it every 25s, meaning its now a damage loss to not do that.
No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.Quote:
I have never once seen the developer's remove something with the intent to add something to replace it in this game's 10+ years of existence.
Its remove, simplify, never replace. Its why literally no one believe Yoshida when he says things about Job identity coming soon™
The end result of what your asking for is Thrill of Battle with 10% mit on a 25s cd. They're not going to bring back old skills or make a new MP system for DRK when they can just do this.That's also factually untrue, I mean we JUST got a job actions trailer followed by the info from the media tour where we have seen that exact thing you're saying they "haven't done in 10+ years." NIN just lost Huton but got a whole new job gauge added instead, MNK just had their whole basic rotation reworked to function with a different gauge as well, BLM had several abilities removed and replaced with others that expanded their rotations. I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."
06-13-2024, 07:53 AM
Shurrikhan
You asked how they could reintroduce meaningful MP management to DRK. I told you how to reintroduce MP management on DRK. Or is the goalpost running faster than even you can keep up?Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
You're fully in the realm of "complete overhaul/rework."
That "complete overhaul", though, is literally just a revert with an actual attempt at appropriate tuning this time, nothing more.
And if you're going to refuse anything that doesn't confirm your own preference to simplify play further, why are you even on a public forum? Likewise, if you honestly believe the devs will never add (back) substantial to DRK... (1) that's not a reason to remove what little it has left, and (2) what point, again, is there in any point in discussing any of this?
Knowing by exactly when sufficient damage will hit so you can pre-pop TBN by 6 seconds, saving MP in opener and or increasing the amount of MP you can fit into your burst, and then cover yet another TB with it just 9s later is a substantially more skill-expressive than "Hit right before TB. There's no chance of having it up anyways for the next one, but at least it's within the next 30s so Excog will autonomously see use if needed anyways" that you just called gameplay augmentation (all while calling things that further emphasize, rather than de-emphasize, good timing... negligible).Quote:
I honestly don't think basic timing is all that "skillful," I guess, utilizing the abilities afterwards is far more "skill" expressive, but again not that I think the other tank's defensives take much skill to use either.
Its sustain, the barrier, is the primary reward. Which is literally all that any other on-demand gets. It just had a small additional one atop that which fits well with DRK's offensive minutia.Quote:
Again, that's my point, it's actual mechanics are not a reward at all
You have yet to provide any reasonable warrant that the job would otherwise be given additional depth if this element of depth were removed despite refusing wholesale the historical evidence to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a sh*t about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...
Because maybe people would rather their defensive be first and foremost a defensive, even if one that trades ease for flexibility, than have their offense tuned around how much damage they can take?Quote:
Then just make up for it with other abilities or potency balancing? Why is this an issue worth considering at all?
Your related multiple changes:Quote:
I'm not saying "do this one thing in a vaccuum," I did even brought up multiple changes lol
Which is literally just making it 25% additional current and maximum HP with 10% mitigation, on a 25s CD, that your outgoing damage is then tuned around. Which is exactly what, and has exactly the problems that, Oizen responded to.Quote:
Quote:
Make TBN free of MP, give it Oblations DR, increase the CD and increase the duration, but keep the breaking mechanic to actually provide a reward for using it properly instead of a means to avoid a punishment.
Ahh yes, because we never used to do anything like performing 2 Armor Crushes per 6 Aeolian Edges before... Oh wait.Quote:
That's also factually untrue, I mean we JUST got a job actions trailer followed by the info from the media tour where we have seen that exact thing you're saying they "haven't done in 10+ years." NIN just lost Huton but got a whole new job gauge added instead
Right, because we didn't previously alternate Dragon Kick and Bootshine or Twin Snakes, True Strike, and True Strike (at moderate or greater haste)? Oh wait.Quote:
MNK just had their whole basic rotation reworked to function with a different gauge as well
Now, admittedly, our button diversity did go down now that we can no longer multi-DoT with Demolish for a damage increase at 3 or fewer enemies and in that we use Snap Punch for 75% of Coeurls instead of 67%... but that's it. They're simplifications to make downtime irrelevant.
The Monk changes are not new. Nor did they add to gameplay; they merely simplified the gameplay we had before, removing naunces.
C'mon, even just generally speaking, please don't pretend that moving the same cue information from the status bars to a new UI element makes for new gameplay.
It follows from exactly what you said.Quote:
No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.
...Quote:
I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."
...This is you claiming that anything like what we literally had before would be impossible ever to have again, even while now treating a historical fact that job "rehauls" since have universally trended towards simplification as illogical negativism...Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
we've come so far down this current iteration that those options don't work anymore
06-13-2024, 09:14 AM
Ramiee
Id like vengeance to be placed on Dark Knight and for it to have the blood bar increase from damage taken as well. Go all in on making it the revenge tank, take revenge on warrior for stealing drk's life steal tank gimmick by taking a (very minor) gimmick of warrior!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Dark Knight needs more mechanics that reward it for taking damage, as I do view it was the revenge tank
06-13-2024, 09:34 AM
wildvenonat
The MP cost makes it so that it's desirable to think about when you're using it rather than to press it on cooldown, as it actually feels bad for the shield to not break. This then means it feels more rewarding when it does break.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Sure, I won't deny you that, but removing it's MP cost doesn't have to and even should not change that functionality of it.
Plus the other tanks also get options to use on friends as well, that actually tend to do a lot more then just give a shield.
The other tanks have less tension for whether or not they used their ally mitigation correctly, so they're less satisfying.
It's like the difference between breaking a scholar's shield from a sage's shield. Sage's take slightly longer to perform and have a method to make back your lost damage; Scholar's exist and do not have a pass/fail indicator.
06-13-2024, 11:34 AM
VicariousXIV
Don't try and manufacture a narrative on this, there's no point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
You asked how they could reintroduce meaningful MP management to DRK...... again, is there in discussing any of this?
I'm talking and have been talking since I made this whole post about actual possible changes they might do, NOT an overhaul, and yes a full revert is still a f*cking overhaul.
If your one answer can't satisfy the realm of actual possibility don't blame me, I even said I would agree with you and you still get pissy about it. FFS open your eyes...
I find it astonishing you think that's unique to DRK and think it takes some kind of exceptional skill.... that's it. Sorry, DRK is the second easiest tank to play, and TBN being so basic is part of the reason why.Quote:
Knowing by exactly when sufficient damage ... negligible.
By that logic it still loses compared to the other tanks. "The shield is the reward?" Ok so why does that compare to a slightly smaller shield, plus mit, plus healing? It doesn't, is the answer.Quote:
Its sustain, the barrier, is the primary reward. Which is literally all that any other on-demand gets. It just had a small additional one atop that which fits well with DRK's offensive minutia.
Ironic...... I have infact provided actual evidence of what I'm saying, you just choose to disregard it despite your disregard proving my f*cking point.Quote:
You have yet to provide any reasonable warrant that the job would otherwise be given additional depth if this element of depth were removed despite refusing wholesale the historical evidence to the contrary.
I'm literally trying to advocate for minor changes to DRK and you start ranting about how the examples I provide are minor changes, BRO f*cking pay attention! Yeah, they end up playing out similarly, you know why, cause they compensated the changes they made like you f*cking asked for evidence of! Holy f*cking sh*t.
Like I said, if they did a rework then I'd be game for it, I just think it's unrealistic so want to bring attention to something that is, you're the one sitting there trying to shoot down literally anything else as impossible.Quote:
...This is you claiming that anything like what we literally had before would be impossible ever to have again, even while now treating a historical fact that job "rehauls" since have universally trended towards simplification as illogical negativism...
06-13-2024, 11:36 AM
VicariousXIV
I don't agree, cause you can't just use the other tanks defensives on allies off CD either, and their longer CD can actually hurt you more then just losing out on your tank damage a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildvenonat
The MP cost makes it so that it's desirable to think about when you're using it rather than to press it on cooldown, as it actually feels bad for the shield to not break. This then means it feels more rewarding when it does break.
The other tanks have less tension for whether or not they used their ally mitigation correctly, so they're less satisfying.
It's like the difference between breaking a scholar's shield from a sage's shield. Sage's take slightly longer to perform and have a method to make back your lost damage; Scholar's exist and do not have a pass/fail indicator.
But I mean you do you, I just don't find a shield they likely don't even notice that can give me one oGCD attack to be less interesting then watching them heal themselves to full out of nowhere, which is potentially a sacrifice I made if I timed it poorly in the midst of the encounter.
06-13-2024, 11:45 AM
Agner
To reiterate, I would consider the other defensives stacked more "meaningfully" in jobs other than DRK, but that DRK is still alright defensively. It's fine to say otherwise, but I feel like DRK is hilariously a better baseline for what tanks should be closer to—it obviously feels "squishier" in dungeons, but I don't want my healer to be as bored as I am tanking a dungeon. It's been not difficult to tank a dungeon on DRK whatsoever, assuming your healer is paying a small amount of attention. I remember hearing this big funk about how EW DRK is difficult in dungeons, which is why I actually bothered leveling it this expansion. It still wasn't difficult unless your healer was straight up AFK. That, or paying about as much attention as a tank needs to in a dungeon. Fun stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
it's the least interactive (ironically) when it comes to endgame and it just flat out f*cking sucks in dungeons for no good reason.
With that said! What I would certainly not argue against is more interactivity between our defensives, or kit in general. However, I still don't have the trust that the team would make that happen without it still managing to be bland. Things like the already simple DA+AD loop while keeping up Blood Weapon and using Quietus to refill MP seem to have been shot out of the game in favor of one button, no failure copies.
Well, as you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
I really don't think those would have ever happened if not for people making a fuss about it, cause while we were bringing it to light most non-DRK players were also actively arguing AGAINST any of those changes!
"To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it."Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
You might have a point though, they dumbed the job down mechanically so they have to ramp up how hard it is to get any meaningful QoL or updates lol
Surely, too, we are meant to internalize that at this point. :)
Ya, that's totally fair. I think it's ok to read my former post (or posts) in a dramatic boomer voice, yappin' about "ye olde days" and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Liking it doesn't require desperation nor nostalgia, only having played without and with it.
I feel silly missing things as simple as dungeon pulls in Stormblood, but I get it. Kits would actually flow back into each other regardless of their issues, and there were at least a degree of inputs required to achieve it. It wasn't hard or anything, but it at least took a little bit of attention to perform. To avoid getting too off topic, I'll end with saying that I'd actually prefer that I don't need to multitask to keep my skull occupied. It'd be nice to focus on just the game when playing the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's also pretty absurd that people who didn't play in Stormblood blame it for the loss of this or that other capacity...
06-13-2024, 02:06 PM
VicariousXIV
Yeah dungeons are easy on everything, but DRK is the only tank that can't make it through on it's own and that is the issue, but you have a point that maybe all 3 other tanks being so much stronger in such easy content might be more of the issue. Regardless, either all three others need to be brought in line or DRK needs to be brought up so the difficulty can be increased, cause if it is as things are now the DRK is boned, strangely in the easiest of contents lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Agner
To reiterate, I would consider the other defensives stacked more "meaningfully" in jobs other than DRK, but that DRK is still alright defensively. It's fine to say otherwise, but I feel like DRK is hilariously a better baseline for what tanks should be closer to—it obviously feels "squishier" in dungeons, but I don't want my healer to be as bored as I am tanking a dungeon. It's been not difficult to tank a dungeon on DRK whatsoever, assuming your healer is paying a small amount of attention. I remember hearing this big funk about how EW DRK is difficult in dungeons, which is why I actually bothered leveling it this expansion. It still wasn't difficult unless your healer was straight up AFK. That, or paying about as much attention as a tank needs to in a dungeon. Fun stuff.
With that said! What I would certainly not argue against is more interactivity between our defensives, or kit in general. However, I still don't have the trust that the team would make that happen without it still managing to be bland. Things like the already simple DA+AD loop while keeping up Blood Weapon and using Quietus to refill MP seem to have been shot out of the game in favor of one button, no failure copies.
I think we are, the problem is where there are three other paths to walk that do not require such "suffering or sacrifice," it's hard to not just walk those paths and pray that the outlier is eventually smoothed out, call me weak but if I can unga bunga with WAR and generally just do everything better then the DRK can, or play GNB and retain even more uptime, or just go PLD for more complexity, I don't know if my love for the story and edgy aesthetics are enough to keep me on board even though I would very much like to be, the clunkiness and lack of interactivity within it's own kit is just such a turn-off when it's not an issue the other tanks have since they've already received all the QoL their playerbases asked for, especially when there are people who actually want to keep the bullsh*t for bullsh*t reasons. Kinda makes me want to just go to the easier roads and let everyone just be happy with their faux "uniqueness."Quote:
"To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it."
Surely, too, we are meant to internalize that at this point. :)
But honestly putting it so poetically, that has been the most convincing thing to keep me playing it, for now at least lol There's honestly just so much I do like about the DRK that it's infuriating that it still also has so much nonsense built into it.
06-13-2024, 05:22 PM
CKNovel
I think we should keep TBN as it is, it's the only tank CD that is actually different from all other tank CDs.
Oblation, I think is "fine" on its own. It just gets reduced to ridiculous degrees under heavy mitigation and can become a weak 6~5%. Either make an exception for the way Oblation is calculated, make it always 10% on the original damages or extend its duration to allow it to soak auto attacks. Currently there's barely anything to justify its effect, not even the 2 charges.
What bothers me is how Darkside's timer has been unchanged from Shadowbringer, it only matters during the opener and pretty much stays on by itself.
Living Shadow has been introduced in ShB, updated in EW and soon DT but its gameplay still remains the same, you press it and then you forget it. I'm glad more and more people starts to be tired of this kind of automated summon.I think bloodprice being reintroduced would make sense. I'm not a fan of buttons that shares cooldown but Bloodprice is different enough to be an exception. Just updates its effect, give blood gauge, reduces Delirium cooldown by 1 second everytime you get hit, give back HP on every hit you take...
Finally we need a GCD, a new GCD, the filler is just too boring right now and needs something else than 1 2 3.
Reintroduce Scourge as a 30s GCD or like MCH adds GCDs on 20s/40s cooldowns. I believe it would make DRK a bit more unique compared to the other tanks.06-13-2024, 06:53 PM
Ramiee
You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
But I mean you do you, I just don't find a shield they likely don't even notice that can give me one oGCD attack to be less interesting then watching them heal themselves to full out of nowhere, which is potentially a sacrifice I made if I timed it poorly in the midst of the encounter.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail state for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.06-13-2024, 07:52 PM
wildvenonat
Yeah, pretty much. TBN is interesting for me as a healer to watch someone use because it's helpful, it's available often, and isn't so powerful as to leave me feeling like I don't need to be here. While playing DRK, it's also very fun to judge the amount of damage someone will take, and it's hilarious when a DRK correctly judges that you're about to stand in orange and gets their proc off you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail sake for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.The other short cooldowns are so strong that it either feels bad to use it on someone else when you would have gotten good use of it on yourself, or they're so free that you're often boring the healer. As much as I enjoy healing and don't mind the simple damage rotation, I want to feel useful at some point.
06-14-2024, 12:12 AM
VicariousXIV
I don't believe TBN is really all that different, it plays out the same as any other but with less effects and more room to be punished, that's kind of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
I think we should keep TBN as it is, it's the only tank CD that is actually different from all other tank CDs.
Oblation, I think is "fine" on its own. It just gets reduced to ridiculous degrees under heavy mitigation and can become a weak 6~5%. Either make an exception for the way Oblation is calculated, make it always 10% on the original damages or extend its duration to allow it to soak auto attacks. Currently there's barely anything to justify its effect, not even the 2 charges.
What bothers me is how Darkside's timer has been unchanged from Shadowbringer, it only matters during the opener and pretty much stays on by itself.
Living Shadow has been introduced in ShB, updated in EW and soon DT but its gameplay still remains the same, you press it and then you forget it. I'm glad more and more people starts to be tired of this kind of automated summon.I think bloodprice being reintroduced would make sense. I'm not a fan of buttons that shares cooldown but Bloodprice is different enough to be an exception. Just updates its effect, give blood gauge, reduces Delirium cooldown by 1 second everytime you get hit, give back HP on every hit you take...
Finally we need a GCD, a new GCD, the filler is just too boring right now and needs something else than 1 2 3.
Reintroduce Scourge as a 30s GCD or like MCH adds GCDs on 20s/40s cooldowns. I believe it would make DRK a bit more unique compared to the other tanks.I agree on everything else though, if Oblation didn't get ground into nothing when combined with other defensives then it's flexibility would actually be quite the boon, it's hard though cause percentages scale the way they do not cause of coding but cause that's how percentages just work lol Giving it an enhanced duration though could help a lot, like make it so it lasts longer then most other defensives so the overlap is what stays relevant. Idk, it's a hard one, I still think shifting it into TBN would be the best way of making both better, but a shift in power for Oblation would still be good enough, imo.
And yeah, my initial idea of moving TBN off of MP and adding in more offensive MP options was to provide more interaction since we just have a 1, 2, 3 and not much else, so we still do the basic combo but weave different oGCDs regularly with a far more potent amount of MP regen that requires active upkeep and you solve a lot of the issues of just having 1, 2, 3. New GCDs would also accomplish that too though, especially ones that provide lingering effects.
06-14-2024, 12:18 AM
VicariousXIV
Idk why people think healers just need to heal....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
You mean the thing that has killed healing on PLD and WAR. The thing healers loathe? What you described right here is why so many healers prefer TBN, because it doesn't erase their role.
TBN also uniquely has a sort of fail state for fight reclears, if you use it in the wrong places you lose out on a ogcd attack. Erasing the MP cost means you have to lose this attack otherwise it just becomes a chance based ogcd proc every 20 seconds or so, instead of a refund of damage as a reward for a well timed TBN.
TBN is by far the most interesting short CD on a tank.Yes, WAR has too much healing, in dungeons, but providing some extra healing in other content doesn't "kill healers," if that's where the disgruntled rhetoric has moved then it's moved offbase for no reason other then continued outrage for the sake of outrage.
And no, if TBN lost it's MP it would not automatically become a proc instead, that's a guess and not at all what I'm directly suggesting, but regardless it's still just a shield that grants a single oGCD and that's what I'm saying it should remain, even if that is rather bland.
It is by far the least interesting of tank's short CD defensives.
06-14-2024, 12:27 AM
Ramiee
I am not on team healers need to heal im on team healers need to heal and need to dps. Right now all they have is a 1 button damage spam and maybe 2 oGCDS an entire dungeon, with blm that moves up to like 5 oGCDs. Even if Healers had a robust DPS system I would still have this opinion because right now healers DO NOT HEAL, if you have anyone slightly competent in every single difficulty level of this game you will NEVER need to GCD heal. TOP was cleared when it was new with NO healers, tanks being able to heal themselves and others have made healers redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Idk why people think healers just need to heal....
Yes, WAR has too much healing, in dungeons, but providing some extra healing in other content doesn't "kill healers," if that's where the disgruntled rhetoric has moved then it's moved offbase for no reason other then continued outrage for the sake of outrage.
And no, if TBN lost it's MP it would not automatically become a proc instead, that's a guess and not at all what I'm directly suggesting, but regardless it's still just a shield that grants a single oGCD and that's what I'm saying it should remain, even if that is rather bland.
It is by far the least interesting of tank's short CD defensives.
TBN is interesting because it has a sacrifice and a reward you are rewarded for using it well while a WAR just has to press a single AOE to fully heal. You're painfully naive if you think people won't use TBN on CD if it lost its MP cost and was given a short CD. Bard repelling shot back in ARR had 55 potency damage and because of that it was never used as a dodge, it was used as an oGCD attack as well as every single stun in the entire game which also had damage potency. If you have even the slightest chance for free damage from using TBN on cooldown people will do it because damage is king in MMOs. Why do you think gapclosers are incorperated into DPS rotations?
The only thing I would pssiobly agree on is maybe giving the oGCD after the shield break maybe a lifesteal but thats it.06-14-2024, 01:28 AM
VicariousXIV
They "do not heal" in dungeons, 99% of the time in endgame content they are still completely necessary and it's impossible without them, that 1% at the top end who do something extreme like clearing TOP with no healers isn't the norm and should not be a basis to form an opinion on for the rest of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
I am not on team healers .... others have mad healers redundant.
TBN is interesting because .... maybe giving the oGCD after the shield break maybe a lifesteal but thats it.
So yes, as mentioned tank healing needs to be reduced, mainly WAR, and I do also think healers need more offensive abilities in general and then relying on oGCD heals shouldn't be demonized either, a proper mix of offense and healing should be the goal.
I also just don't think TBN is a "sacrifice and reward," it's a "break even or get punished" ability. And you're painfully naive if you think people using it for damage is inherently a negative thing. You do make a fair point that it being spammed might become an issue in gameplay, which should be a point of discussion instead of a means to levy insults, but honestly if a DRK player uses it off CD and then misses a tank buster then they f*cked up, and if they're using it for more oGCD usage outside of that phase then why would that be a bad thing? Block as much damage as possible and get rewarded with a free oGCD. Everyone is always complaining about DRK being so offensively focused but still losing in damage to the WAR and GNB, so why would providing it some extra damage for proper use and timing (the thing everyone has been saying they like about TBN) be a bad thing at all? f*ck it, give it two charges like Oblation and remove Oblation, so that it CAN be used more often and provide more consistent return while retaining all of the flexibility, that'll even allow it to actually be the "shield tank," food for thought at least, at least better then throwing insults cause of ideas, k? lol
If that just won't work then the offensive uses of MP have to be reworked, or else none of it will ever change or see any additions or improvements, period.
06-14-2024, 01:32 AM
VictorSpoils
And then half the time you're wishing the 7-second duration and/or 12-second cooldown were one second longer/faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildvenonat
TBN is the most fun button DRK has with a small amount of strategy involved in using it in casual play. Being able to TBN someone who you expect to stand in orange, or to improve someone else's uptime, is truly delightful.
06-14-2024, 01:49 AM
MagiusNecros
Bosses would be immune to the draw-in. Blue Mage's Hydro Pull works to great effect in all dungeons to keep enemies grouped up and would work great for the regular Tanks if they ever got a skill like that. Also doubles as a interrupt on enemies that cast spells if they get moved.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer
Salted Earth pulling enemies to you in PvE could actually be useful, though it would have a billion exceptions when a boss is supposed to be in a particular spot.
06-14-2024, 03:00 AM
Ramiee
The fact its possible shows theres an inbalance even if its 1% in sync'd content a healer isnt needed thats an objective balance problem the same way it would be a problem if a tank wasn't necessary. TBN not directly healing you is one of the few tank CDs that doesn't contribute to this problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
They "do not heal" in dungeons, 99% of the time in endgame content they are still completely necessary and it's impossible without them, that 1% at the top end who do something extreme like clearing TOP with no healers isn't the norm and should not be a basis to form an opinion on for the rest of the game.
It is, its why Stuns and most movement tools no longer do potency the devs agreed with me. Utility =/ Damage, damage will always matter more to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
I also just don't think TBN is a "sacrifice and reward," it's a "break even or get punished" ability. And you're painfully naive if you think people using it for damage is inherently a negative thing.
Because TBN is a good defensive tool thats why WAR and GNB both have barriers on their short GCDs and why theres an entire healing subrole based around barriers.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
but honestly if a DRK player uses it off CD and then misses a tank buster then they f*cked up, and if they're using it for more oGCD usage outside of that phase then why would that be a bad thing?
I want DRK to do more damage than WAR and GNB and I think TBN is good tool for it. It refunds MP you could of used on an attack on a shield if you shield well, this doesn't need to change. I want DRK tanking to give you damage for good Defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
Everyone is always complaining about DRK being so offensively focused but still losing in damage to the WAR and GNB, so why would providing it some extra damage for proper use and timing (the thing everyone has been saying they like about TBN) be a bad thing at all?
Then they would have to erase the MP attack reward from it because then its a chance for two oGCD attacks. I don't think anyone wants it to be a shield tank people want it to be the revenge tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
f*ck it, give it two charges like Oblation and remove Oblation, so that it CAN be used more often and provide more consistent return while retaining all of the flexibility, that'll even allow it to actually be the "shield tank,"
Agreed MP should be reworked and good MP management should make DRK have the highest damage ceiling of all Tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
If that just won't work then the offensive uses of MP have to be reworked, or else none of it will ever change or see any additions or improvements, period.
06-14-2024, 03:29 AM
wildvenonat
Yep! It's available so much that you feel it every time it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorSpoils
And then half the time you're wishing the 7-second duration and/or 12-second cooldown were one second longer/faster.
06-14-2024, 03:58 AM
Oizen
Yes my argument is that TBN allows for a certain level of skill expression in an otherwise scripted game. This is objectively more interesting than press button.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
So your argument is "don't change it cause in our opener we can get one extra oGCD?" I honestly don't give anywhere enough of a sh*t about one oGCD in the opener to actually want to leave the job hamstrung otherwise...
Its REALLY not though, I can tell you haven't been around here too long. Or maybe you haven't been paying attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
No, that is not the end result, that's a baseless assumption you're using to try and justify your position by effectively ignoring most of what I've said.
Lets look at a recent example, the removal of plunge and how controversial that has been.
They didn't want damage on a utility move anymore and wanted to lower DRK weaving, fine.
So they remove the damage from the gap closer.What they could have done instead is allow the new gap closer to work like thunderclap, allowing you to dash to the boss or an ally, allowing added utility to make up for the lost damage.
Maybe they could have even buffed Enhanced Unmend, you know the gap closer trait exclusive to Dark Knight, that was already so niche in EW content that it was basically useless because boss hitboxes are so big it just doesn't matter?
Did they do either of this? nah. Just remove the damage.Enhanced Unmend, arguably one of the worst, most memed on traits in the game, got nerfed. And I guarantee you it didn't even cross their mind when doing making this change.
This is the level of care they put into job reworking, bare minimum, remove, reduce, simplify, never replace or add to itThe fact you wrote this tells me how aware you are of how well those changes are being received. You really shouldn't argue about things you don't really know anything about.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicariousXIV
BLM had several abilities removed and replaced with others that expanded their rotations. I just don't see any logical sense in sticking to such negativity to think "it can never happen so stop wanting better."
06-14-2024, 05:45 AM
VicariousXIV
And once more I will reiterate that I'm aware there's an imbalance, it just isn't "part of the problem" in the vast majority of endgame content for the even vaster majority of players to use CDs with heals in them every so often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramiee
The fact its possible shows theres an inbalance even if its 1% in sync'd content a healer isnt needed thats an objective balance problem the same way it would be a problem if a tank wasn't necessary. TBN not directly healing you is one of the few tank CDs that doesn't contribute to this problem.
Uh, yeah, which is why I'm saying combine them better?Quote:
It is, its why Stuns and most movement tools no longer do potency the devs agreed with me. Utility =/ Damage, damage will always matter more to people.
I never said barriers were bad. But yes, WAR and GNB having barriers on top of everything else they do is part of the reason why they're so much more interesting then TBN.Quote:
Because TBN is a good defensive tool thats why WAR and GNB both have barriers on their short GCDs and why theres an entire healing subrole based around barriers.
Yeah, me too, which is why I made the suggestions I did, cause getting a refund for lost DPS does not equate to more damage then if you'd just gone for damage. You should actually GET more damage for properly using your defense.Quote:
I want DRK to do more damage than WAR and GNB and I think TBN is good tool for it. It refunds MP you could of used on an attack on a shield if you shield well, this doesn't need to change. I want DRK tanking to give you damage for good Defense.
Well no, that's my point, you attack with each break, getting two oGCDs likely wouldn't even push it past WAR, much less GNB, not unless the DT changes close the gap a fair amount. And sure, a lot of people might want that, but I've seen A LOT of people saying they want to be "the shield tank" every time I've seen anyone suggest moving away from shielding. But honestly they really just go hand in hand anyways.Quote:
Then they would have to erase the MP attack reward from it because then its a chance for two oGCD attacks. I don't think anyone wants it to be a shield tank people want it to be the revenge tank.
DRK not being the highest damage tank just feels like they f*cked up, I love WAR but I should not be able to so easily out damage a DRK with it.Quote:
Agreed MP should be reworked and good MP management should make DRK have the highest damage ceiling of all Tanks.
06-14-2024, 06:21 AM
Praesul
I'm honestly surprised at this point they haven't added extra effects to Salted Earth at least. I do think that just copying things from pvp when people bring it up tends to not be the solution since a lot of pvp design doesn't exactly carry over to pve, but Salted Earth would function just fine if it worked as it did in pvp. There's precedent for that sort of ability in other MMOs too, tank jobs in other games have massive aoe draw-ins that are really nice for dungeons, and there's NPCs in the game (usually marauder or warrior equivalents) that have something along those lines too lol.
In WoW tank paladins get a benefit by standing in their ground aoe, it would be nice if you got the regen like in pvp or damage reduction. It would probably make more sense to get regen while you stand inside because if it were extra mit people would just complain that a DPS button has a defensive component to it, and people haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate having to forgo damage for defensive benefit, and regen effects make more sense as "light cooldowns" you can just pop regularly without feeling too bad if they get wasted.
Abyssal Drain should probably be untethered from Carve and Spit at this point too, or just be reworked. I'm surprised they haven't brought over Dread Spikes from XI, for those that don't know it was a spell they could use that dealt back the damage that was dealt to the DRK, back to the enemy, and healed for the same amount. It capped out at 50% of your max HP, so once you healed for that amount it would wear off. Some reworking of the spell would be pretty nice and help DRK sustain in dungeons without being overpowering against bosses. Maybe not have the damage portion and just be a cooldown that heals you every time you take damage, then just distribute the Abyssal Drain potency into their other skills.
As for TBN I'm not sure if the devs could ever change it to satisfy most people. I'm one of those that likes the fact that it costs MP and potentially makes the ability more interesting, especially when you optimize and try to carry over the "free" edge into raid buffs. But realistically most content in the game doesn't do enough damage to break the shield, so the short 15 sec CD isn't too advantageous. I'd love to be able to pop TBN on the reg and get value out of it but if it doesn't break it just feels way too bad. I think if incoming damage was increased across the board people's feelings on it would change, both in casual and savage/ultimate content.
06-14-2024, 06:36 AM
VicariousXIV
Yeah it was actually Blood Death Knight that came to mind when I heard that SE can pull enemies into it in PvP, which is why I immediately thought "why the f*ck did they not include that in PvE!?" lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
I'm honestly surprised at this point they haven't added extra effects to Salted Earth at least. .... that have something along those lines too lol.
In WoW tank paladins get a benefit by standing in their ground aoe ..... you can just pop regularly without feeling too bad if they get wasted.
I personally think in this case a direct 1 to 1 transfer of both skills would work, but yeah in most cases I would agree that some tweaks would be necessary.
Yeah honestly prior to them creating the solution to dungeon difficulties for the DRK in the form of the PvP SE, my own suggestion was to just uncouple AD from CN and give AD an MP cost while removing it's MP regen and lowering it's CD. Now I think that would be overkill, especially if they just used the SE PvP version in PvE lolQuote:
Abyssal Drain should probably be untethered from Carve and Spit at this point too ...... then just distribute the Abyssal Drain potency into their other skills.
Also, they probably haven't included this Dread Spikes ability cause it sounds like Vengeance for WAR, but hey they have some more overlap in the defensives now, might be something that's possible.
I think it breaks just fine in most content, unless ofc you mean for more regular use, cause yeah in the majority of content it won't break unless hit by a tank buster or something along those lines.Quote:
As for TBN I'm not sure if the devs could ever change it to satisfy most people..... I think if incoming damage was increased across the board people's feelings on it would change, both in casual and savage/ultimate content.
Idk if more damage to cause it to break more often would really change my feelings on it at all, it's still just an avoidance of punishment more so then a reward, but hey maybe if it was easier to break in more content and it provided something on top of just another oGCD you'd have used otherwise anyways, perhaps more people's sentiments would change.
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